For 6 games at the end of 2024, Lee Carsley became the second former Bee to take charge of the England national side (the first was Ron Greenwood – a Brentford player & captain 1949-52 and England’s manager 1977-82).In the second part of Bees United chair Stuart Hatcher’s interview with Lee Carsley, they look at Lee’s time in charge England and some of his career highlights.
Stuart Hatcher
If I can just quickly flip into your England role – how do you create that confidence in a world class player? Because surely you know they’re performing week in week out. How do you say to a player like Jude Bellingham “be confident!” – because surely you look at a player like that and say how do you improve this guy? How do you make his life any better?
Lee Carsley
Well, first and foremost, you have to you have to realise that playing for England at international level is different to your club. So, in terms of team mates that you’re playing with, it’s not always the same squad. It’s really important that you try and create the environment and the culture where players can make mistakes and you really want them to express themselves. And I think that the players can see that you believe in them. That’s a massive theme. You know, some of the players, they are in great form, with brilliant reputations and if you can give them the platform to carry on playing to their strengths – which is always what we try and do with the international team – and my spell with the team showed us what quality we have in the country and we’re so lucky we’ve got some outstanding players.
Stuart Hatcher
And just building on that answer, can you maybe give us a flavour of what the difference is between being a domestic and international head coach? And what the different skill sets are, you touched on that but I wonder if you might expand on that a little bit?
Lee Carsley
I suppose the best way of describing international coaching is that you have to coach on fast forward. If domestically you sign a player for two years, you have two years to get to know them and spend time with them every single day. Whereas with international football you get a short interval, a short window where you have to do so many things. First of all, you have to get to know them, develop a relationship with them. Then you have to create a scenario where they’re going to perform.
So a lot of work is done off the pitch – very informal. The difference between club and country is that – at international level – we have them for 24 hours, they are staying in hotels and so you have more informal meetings, a lot of informal catch ups, taking an interest in how they’re getting on.
You are thinking about how you can be accommodating to them – so if you know they have a young family or they’ve just had kids you try to make sure that if they do need a little bit more time off, or need to join up a little bit later, then you try to do, and I think I think you then get that back in terms of effort and wanting to play for England: which is a big thing for them! So yeah, the best way to describe it is that everything is on fast forward with international football. But the scrutiny is much, much wider – the most difficult thing about the job is picking the squad. And then the next most difficult thing is picking a team! Everyone’s got an opinion.
So, for example, if you went to Birmingham and said to someone in the Bullring “what should the Brentford team be this weekend?” – they probably wouldn’t have a clue. If you ask them what the England team should be then you’ll hear “you need to start him, you need to start him, he needs to play…..” You know, everyone’s got an opinion on England, which is brilliant because, you want people to be engaged in the team.
Stuart Hatcher
I do have a question about that, but I might first just ask you about being on fast forward. That’s a pretty brilliant image, so thanks for that – but I was going to ask you about managers always complain about international breaks (although you had an international break in the first three weeks at Brentford after you’d lost the first two and then went on your great run). So, having seen both sides, how do you feel about them now – because a lot of managers seem to complain about it “Oh, I’ve got an international break. It’s disrupting.” What’s your feeling about them?
Lee Carsley
It’s interesting that you refer to it as an international break. We see it as an international window whereas clubs see it as a break! And the players always need a break in the international break, so they never need a break in the in the league. But, we are mindful that club form is so important and we support and work together with the clubs. It’s something that we are constantly wrestling with in terms of trying to do what’s best for the players – obviously we would never put players that are injured or unhealthy in the position to represent the team because ultimately we’ve got to do what’s best for the players. But I think it’s interesting when it’s referred to as “the break” – “We’ve got a break coming up.”
Stuart Hatcher
Well, I even used that language! I didn’t talk about windows, so I’ve defaulted into that automatically!
Lee Carsley
I know! But our most important time is the window and some players might see it like that – I played international football and when I retired from international football it was great to have a break, so I definitely can sympathise! I you know how important some of the players that play for England and internationally are to their clubs and generally they are the most high value players as well, so it’s definitely something that we try and work with the clubs on.
Stuart Hatcher
And moving on to a question that you sort of touched on to – and wanting to jump back to how everyone has an opinion about the squad. Can you give us some insight about how you go about selecting a squad and the tactics? I guess everyone would have a different view about what formation to play – and the formation is going to depend on which players. So how do you – as the new England manager – start with a clean piece of paper, with no history of picking any of the players. How do you build that squad?
Lee Carsley
Well, using the last three months as an example, you know it was important to recognise what the team had done – and squad had done – in the past, which was getting so close to winning a major tournament on two or three occasions. So, it was important that that we didn’t dismantle the squad and start again from scratch because they’d come so close! But, on the other hand we did need put our own stamp on it, and inject some energy into the into the squad, so that was the first thing that we tried to do. We bought in three or four new players, players that I’d worked with in the past that I knew were playing well in the Premier League and they would add that excitement and that newness and freshness to the squad. So that was a big thing. I’ll always try to be quite transparent with players – so if you’re playing while at your club, you’ve got a really good chance of being in a squad.
Stuart Hatcher
Can I – just jump in there on that point and wearing my Brentford hat say that we Brentford fans may grumble and say “Oh, there’s a big club bias. If Ivan Tony had been playing for Liverpool or Manchester United or Man City, he would have had 20 more caps.” Or Rico Henry – we see a young kid from Man City and Chelsea barely played a Premier League game, getting selected in his position. He’s had three years in the Premier League. I mean he’s injured so we can probably talk about him not being selected because Brentford fans would say “Why isn’t Rico Henry being called up? We need a left back. We’re playing right backs at left back!”
So, is there a big club bias? I mean, you’d probably say no obviously – but how do you respond to fans when they throw that at you? It’s probably the better question.
Lee Carsley
Yeah, I mean, I suppose it depends on the position and then the competition in that position is always what I’d take into consideration. The club itself wouldn’t really matter – if you’re playing at the highest level, that’s a big thing. The players that you spoke about there, from my time in charge, Rico was injured and Ivan wasn’t playing, so they were quite easy decisions to make. But you know we’ve shown in the in the past that if you’re playing well in the Premier League and doing well week in and week out, you’ve got a chance, but it always depends on who you’re competing against. If you’ve got a chance to potentially play a player that’s playing in the Champions League as well as the Premier League, you know it’s difficult to stay in that team (say a Man City or a Chelsea) perhaps compared to say Brentford. So I can see why people get frustrated about that and you know I’ve had a lot of conversations like this at service stations with fans as to why is X not playing and have you thought about putting Y in – and as I said earlier, the most difficult thing I found was to pick the England squad.
I say that because you could literally pick four top players and justify taking every single one of them. And what I noticed as well is – which isn’t rocket science – but all of the players are desperate to play. They all are, they all really value playing for England and being around the squad and the pride that goes into that not only themselves but also their families. So that’s something that I was wary of.
Stuart Hatcher
That’s interesting though, because obviously there is often noise about “Oh X doesn’t care about England”
Lee Carsley
It’s a good story, but it’s it doesn’t happen. They’re all desperate to play for England, it’s a big thing and we’ve seen that. We’ve seen that in the Nations League – the perception of the Nations League when we first took over was “Oh, it’s a friendly.” But it’s only a friendly until you lose a game and then you need to win every single game because England are expected to do well regardless of whether it’s friendlies or major competitions.
Stuart Hatcher
Which is madness really, I think it was Michel Platini, years ago, called England the “World Champions of Friendlies” – and that we didn’t use them to experiment and try things but just went to win rather than use them to focus on tournaments. I do have a question that touches on that point because as a developmental coach – a youth coach – I don’t know which you prefer to describe yourself – and now the under 21s coach for England, what does success look like? If we win the under 21s championship – as you did in 2023 – but we don’t win anything at senior level, is that success? Or maybe the question is what does success look like for an under 21s coach?
Lee Carsley
So success is supporting the senior team as much as you can – similar to the B team at Brentford. It’s getting players through – it was great winning the Euros in 2023, a brilliant experience and now we’ve got an age group, a year group or two year groups of players that have experienced now being in the major final for England and winning. So, if you think about the past teams that have done that: Germany, Spain, Portugal, they have all had really good youth teams (U17, U19, U21s) and they’ve transferred that into the senior team. So that is the plan. I think that’s the ultimate – if we win the under 21s in the summer, everyone goes, “Oh well done, great!” – but it’s not the same as the England senior team winning. The thing it does do though is – and we had Morgan Gibbs-White, Noni Madueke, Cole Palmer, Levi Colwell, Taylor Harwood-Bellis, James Trafford, I could name a lot of the players – Angel Gomez – players like this. They’re used to winning for England, whether that be the on the under 17s World Cup, under 21s Euros, under 19s Euros and hopefully the next step, which is the biggest jump, is winning in the senior team.
Stuart Hatcher
Turning to the domestic game again – it seems that manager’s jobs – and we’ve seen Sean Dyche lose his job today [this was the news on the day of the actual interview], and West Ham changed their manager this week – in the domestic game is just very much results driven. Is it different at international level ? And at international youth level too – is it still a pressure for results – and you mentioned results before- but is that domestic pressure to win games different to the international or international youth level?
Lee Carsley
I think with the under 21s and the senior team, there is an expectation to win. With the quality that we have we should be putting ourselves in a position where we are in the last stages of big finals. Up to the under 21 level it is important that players are getting really good experience in the pathway. We have a lot of players now – 70 odd players are dual nationality – so their first experience with England – in an England shirt – should be a positive one and so there’s a big responsibility on the coaches to make sure that they are getting a good experience. They are getting well coached, playing against real quality opponents. Things are different throughout the age groups, but from the under 21s and senior point of view, I think we are expected to get results – it is more about results, but at under 21 level we’ve got to keep developing players for the senior team and you’ve got to win!
Stuart Hatcher
So that doesn’t sound difficult at all, Lee.
Lee Carsley
It’s a good challenge. Brilliant challenge.
Stuart Hatcher
So, perhaps one last big question and then a couple of quick fire questions.
So, Brentford we spoke about – and you spoke about Rasmus [Ankersen], Phil [Giles], Matthew [Benham] and everyone talks about Brentford being so data-driven. Could that Brentford model – data-driven – could it be replicated at international level? Or is it already? How much data is used in the international arena already that we might not appreciate in comparison to what Brentford are doing? (Should Matthew be in charge of the England team even!?!)
Lee Carsley
We do use data, we do try and use it to help with our planning, and game planning. I think it’s different when you’re using data to recruit players. I think the fact that everyone you speak to speaks about Brentford’s recruitment model and trying to replicate it. But I think what people probably fail to realise is how long it’s taken Matthew and the rest of the team to get to this point – where they know its effective – and also how diligent they are with it.
So, I don’t think it is a case of saying “oh let’s do what Brentford do” or “let’s do what Brighton do” or “Let’s do what Man City do”. I don’t think it’s as simple as that.
But data is such an important thing now I think the thing as well is that the players are really interested in their data. You know the amount of running that they’ve done, passes, created chances, expected goals – all of these kind of things.
But from my point of view, I use data to support the players to hopefully help them: showing them where can we get the ball, these are the effective areas where we can hurt the opposition, rather than forcing data on them. I think that’s my experience of my time when I was in charge at Brentford – it was there to help us and support rather than dictate “this is what we are doing” . It was more like this is what data’s saying and this is what our eyes are saying.
Stuart Hatcher
OK, interesting. Thank you. A couple of quick fire questions then maybe if I can take you back to your playing career. Do you have a favourite moment as a player?
Lee Carsley
I was actually asked this the other day. I’ve got a few favourite moments. I think my first one is actually getting my first contract.
When you sign your first professional contract – at 18 I got offered a one year professional contract, you officially get a card from the PFA to say you’re a professional footballer which was a big thing! At that point I thought “my God, you know, I’ve done something here!” – and then, you know, your next milestone is making your debut. It’s very difficult! I made my debut in “The Match” on a Sunday, I think it was 3 o’clock, it used to be ITV – The Big Match Live!
And then obviously your next thing is getting sold and then moving on. But there’s definitely a few milestones in there! And some fans sometimes don’t appreciate the reality – like, say for instance, getting sold from Derby to Blackburn and moving the family 150 miles up the road. Then getting sold a year later from Derby to Coventry and moving back down. Then getting sold to Everton and moving back up there. And you are still expected to keep performing even though now you’re looking for schools – and we have a few specific personal things in that regard – and you are looking at so many family things that you are having to deal with. But you have to keep on performing, don’t let your form dip but to you the most important thing at the time is just trying to trying to get a removals van to come to the house and collect your family belongings!
Stuart Hatcher
And then do you have a favourite moment as an international player?
Lee Carsley
Again, there’s quite a few. Making my debut for Ireland was brilliant, it was a great experience. But I had a couple of surreal experiences. I remember being there – and it’s not so good, but it is good it’s now coming out – because I remember being in Saipan when Roy [Keane] went home in the World Cup (in fact I think there’s a film coming out now) and I didn’t realise at the time that that was going to be “a moment” if you know what I mean. For me it was just a player that fell out with the manager and now he’s going home. But you know the impact that that had on a manager and a nation was such a big thing: but for me it was such a small thing, you know, and that’s sums me up really, to be honest! I was just so much in my own world! And I do a lot of driving, so I listen to a lot of podcasts and you hear people talking about it that were in the room, and I’m thinking, why can’t I remember any of this? But they can remember it with such detail and so dramatically, and I’m thinking I cannot even remember this!
And then travelling from there to Japan to play in the World Cup. Watching the first World Cup game on telly, you are sat in a hotel thinking “This is the World Cup!” And you know, everyone’s played “World Cup” in their garden, haven’t they? You know, “headers and volleys” (you stick someone in goal and you have to score with either a header or a volley), and so that was a weird experience.
Stuart Hatcher
Quick fire questions: Do you now get recognised in the street?
Lee Carsley
Yeah, but not like I’m getting stopped every 5 minutes, but I think I’m quite low key anyway. I don’t put myself in situations where I’m, you know, getting “papped”. I’m just doing basic things – the most extravagant thing we’ll do as a family is probably go to Nando’s once a month!
Stuart Hatcher
So, what about your favourite time as Brentford coach?
Lee Carsley
It’s got to be the QPR game [30 October 2015 – https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34612265] That was a really great experience. I love that game, it was electric. It was electric that night.
I sat in the crowd at Fulham. [this was the 4-1 away win – 3 April 2015 with Stuart Dallas hitting two screamers and a Jota in the last minute…. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/32080899] I wasn’t manager at the time, but being in the crowd it was brilliant to watch. Jota was so good that game.
I think being at a club where you can just feel that the team are on such a roll, we were just doing so well – they made that late run to get into the play offs and just kept doing so well and then just came up against Middlesbrough.
Stuart Hatcher
And my final question do you have any names of youngsters that you know we might not have heard yet? Who you’re going to predict good big things for? Who should we watch out for? Who we might not yet have heard about? Who’s the next Cole Palmer or Phil Foden?
Lee Carsley
It’s very difficult to keep these players a secret because they burst onto the scene – you look at the Arsenal player – Ethan Nwaneri for example. I still feel there’s players that are going to come through that that you haven’t seen yet.
Lots of players that haven’t quite made it through yet. There’s a lot of players that you know need a bit of luck, need to be pushed in the right direction at the right time and the timing – from a development coach’s point of view, it’s just important that when we do get a chance that we give them that chance.
Stuart Hatcher
Lee really, really appreciate that. And it sounds like you’re quite excited for the talent you have to potentially work with in the future.