As a new era for England’s football team opened under Thomas Tuchel, it brought to end Lee Carsley’s spell as interim head coach. For Brentford fans it was reminiscent of a decade ago when Lee was briefly in charge of the Bees between Marinus Dijkhuisen and Dean Smith.
Bees United chair Stuart Hatcher, recently had a chat with Lee about his time at Griffin Park.
Stuart Hatcher
So Lee, I really appreciate you giving up your time, I know you’re super busy, but it is great for you to be able to share with Bees United some insight into your world. First, it is lovely to see picture of Rob Rowan on the desk behind you, that you know would be important for Brentford fans. You know what an impact he had on Brentford as a club, and what a great guy and how he is much, much missed.
But turning to the interview itself, you’ve obviously had the best job in football and also been England manager as well (and of course you are the only interim Brentford manager to be interim England manager!). For Brentford fans, I wanted to maybe just talk a little bit about your time here, and also about England. So, if I can take you back to 2015 when you took the interim head coach role at Griffin Park. The reports at the time made it clear that you said you didn’t want the job full time, then you won five out of your 10 matches – including all four in October and won Manager of the Month – were you never tempted to say, actually, I like this?
Lee Carsley
No. I read recently an interview with Rasmus Ankerson where he spoke about the conversation that we had when I was named Brentford interim manager – that I basically resigned, that I sent the club an email to say that I would do the three months, that we agreed and then that I would leave, which was obviously a ridiculous thing to do. But I think it was more of a case of I was worried about letting people down. I wasn’t sure in myself if I could do the job or not, especially to the level where I could see where the club was going. I didn’t want to let Matthew down, Phil down, or Rasmus down, or Robert [Rowan]– who was a massive part of giving me the confidence that actually you can do this. So, I think I upset Brentford supporters with the first interview I did, by saying I didn’t want the job. The way that I meant that was I didn’t what the job when you’re the under 21s head coach and your job and your role is to support the senior team manager – who at the time were two Dutch guys? Was it?
Stuart Hatcher
It was Marinus [Dijkhuizen] and Roy [Hendriksen], wasn’t it?
Lee Carsley
Yes, Marinus and Roy who were trying so hard and working so hard, and you can see how much effort they were putting in, but we just couldn’t get the results. And then you go from helping them as much as you can to the next day being put in in front of the press and speaking about the job. So, I was always wary about coming across that I was waiting for them to fail so then I could step into the job. You’re always, always worried about the perception how that comes across. I knew that I could do the job because I’d done it at Coventry in the past. So, confidence wise, I just didn’t want to let people down. I think my immediate reaction was, when I was put in charge, was “right, get this done as quick as you can”, so they can get someone in that can drive the club forward. But like you say after the first two games (which we lost), we just went on an incredible run where we just kept winning and doing really well against good teams. And you build your confidence, and you get used to a way of working and you know they were such good times. So, I wish – without trying to jump in between experiences – but getting the England job and having messages from Phil, Matthew and Rasmus and I thanked all of them for seeing something in me that I didn’t see at the time. They had such confidence in me: that I could do the job and that I was right for the job, and they wanted me to take it full time, but I just didn’t see it myself.
Stuart Hatcher
Is that a modesty trait in you? Or a little bit of imposter syndrome that you had at that time, which you may have worked through?
Lee Carsley
A bit of both. I could see how much it meant to everyone at the club in terms of the staff, and how invested Matthew was, and Phil was, and Rasmus and Robert. Me and Robert spoke every single day, we’d spend every single evening pretty much together and he was constant saying “You can do this, you’re going to be great, and the lads are going to love you, and blah, blah, blah”. I just didn’t get it. I just didn’t see it myself. So, there is a bit of that, obviously fast forward a few years that experience really helped what I’ve just been through. But the times that I had at Brentford were, you know, really unique. It’s an unreal club. I absolutely love it. I keep in touch with Matthew, Phil and I’d love to still be in touch with Robert – I think about him all the time. He’s always in my office and any decisions I make or anything that I do football wise or he’s always on my shoulder which is exactly where he was when I was at Brentford. [prominent behind Lee while we were recording this interview – literally over his shoulder – there is a picture of Rob Rowan].
Stuart Hatcher
That’s lovely and I can absolutely say you’re preaching to the converted there in terms of how much the club is loved and also how much you know, Rob in particular is missed and how everyone appreciated him.
If I can just turn back again to your time as coach, you may not remember, but I think we played Rotherham and scored in the first minute. So, I guess the question is are you are you the architect of this first minute goal trend that Brentford have started?
Lee Carsley
Definitely not, definitely not. I think we’d I think we’d lost two games on the trot at that point. And then I remember I think we played Birmingham at home and Derby away first two games.
And you know we’ve taken over the team – myself and Paul Williams – and you could see the confidence was gone. Obviously I was involved with the club, the season before, where it was Mark [Warburton] and Davey [David Weir] and Frankie Mac [Frank McParland], who had done so well for the club and got to the play offs. The team was so exciting to watch and attacking, however the change in direction with a new coach really put the team backwards and just didn’t quite get going. But that [Rotherham game] was really the start of the of the team starting to move in the right direction.
I forgot to say when we were talking about me taking over, there was a really good chance of getting relegated. We were down near the bottom of the Championship and we were heading in that direction quite quickly.That was definitely something else that was on the back of my mind. But yeah, that goal! I remember Matthew saying before the game, you know, be a good game for us today will we’ll be OK today and I think “Oh my God, we’ve got to win.”
But they’re just so supportive like that, and you know, you very rarely get that in football that when you’ve picked the team and you’re playing a match everyone’s behind you – they’re with you like “it’s our team, it’s our club”, it’s not about me, the team is not a reflection on each other, it’s a reflection on us. Which is something I think that they do so well. I think, Thomas is in such a unique position as a head coach that I’m not sure he gets that at any other club, I think it it’s a unique situation he’s in.
Stuart Hatcher
And in terms of looking at the role, you were in charge of the development squad from October 2014 and then, after you’d left, it was disbanded in May 2016. There’s been lots of reports as to the reason to why and the subsequent creation of the B team (which has now had over 500 first team appearances from players who have come through the B team). So, my question is really what’s your view on that change and how that’s worked? Because it felt quite radical at the time.
Lee Carsley
I remember when I first joined the club, having a conversation with Mark [Warburton] and Matthew and I was really encouraged to think outside the box and think differently and try things as we can’t compete with, you know, A, B and C so to try things. And this idea of a B team was floated past me about a year before it actually happened, and I liked it – and how you would recruit it and how it would lead into the senior team. That part of the job, and that bit of the club was so good because you do think differently and I’ve taken that creativity into all the jobs I’ve gone into since then – whether that be at the FA or whether at Man City, where you try to think differently, try not to think like everyone else. Again I think that’s a really unique thing to Brentford, and the fact that I know Robert was big on that as well, and on the B team and how it would work and the amount of hours he would have put into that in terms of the thinking about how that that was going to pan out, it’s testament to everyone that’s involved in it.
Stuart Hatcher
From your time, at the club, were there youngsters that you saw at Brentford at the time that you thought “yes, these have real potential” and that they gone on in the way you thought they would?
Lee Carsley
There were always good players. I think where Brentford came short especially with the squad that we had is that the senior team improved so quickly that with development football, the players do need literally time to develop. So, they couldn’t really keep up with the level because the level was getting better and better every year with the recruitment model (which was really starting to come to fruition) but the under 21s/B-team wasn’t quite at that level. I remember one game they played in the cup match I think it was against Oxford [https://www.brentfordfc.com/en/news/article/brentford-0-oxford-united-4_71655]And Josh Laurent, Josh Clarke – players like that – played and they did ok but they weren’t at the level where you thought “Right, they’re pushing these players” because the senior team was so strong at the time. And Matthew’s recruitment was getting in players, and it really kicked the club on quite quickly.
Stuart Hatcher
OK, that’s that’s really interesting. And I guess just on that, as Bees United we are fortunate we’ve got Stephen Torpey, who’s the Academy director doing the Q&A for our AGM for Bees United [https://youtu.be/HQ-wCR4CxP0]. So, I’d be interested – and I know you probably know Stephen from Man City days, if you could you share your thoughts maybe on the differences between developing youth players and developing first team or working with the first team?
Lee Carsley
Well, it’s funny you should say that to me because one of my, I suppose, excuses to Matthew for feeling like I was not up for the job is that I was a development coach and his challenge was well why can’t you develop senior team players.
And I said no it doesn’t work like that. But he was absolutely right. It does work like that. You can develop whether you’re a 16 year old or a 37 year old. If you’ve got something to add, you can definitely keep improving. So, first and foremost, it’s creating that relationship with the players where you build up that trust because ultimately, they have to trust you.
When you first start coaching players, they want to know whether they can trust you or not, whether you’re any good and basically what you’re going to do for them.
So I think regardless of age that goes across the board. I think I realised quite quickly within football that to earn the right to coach a player, you’ve got to be a good person. They’ve got to feel like they’re getting put first and the information that you’re giving them is what’s best for them. So that’s definitely something that’s universal. I don’t think there’s “This is what you do with development football” and “this is what you do with senior football.” If you’d asked me this five or six years ago, I’d have said “Oh, there’s a big difference”. I suppose, you probably have to have a little bit more patience with younger players and understand that. And young players they will make mistakes, they will get carried away, they will carry success or failure with them longer. You also have to accept that with age comes experience, but also comes experiences like girlfriends, marriage, babies, passing your tests, getting your first car, first wages – so it’s that understanding of how to help them off the pitch as well as on the pitch is important.
Stuart Hatcher
That’s interesting as I feel like sometimes that football fans don’t realise that a players bad form might be because they’ve got young children who are keeping them awake all night or they’ve got maybe divorce worries or money worries or next contract worries. I think, we do sometimes forget that they have a life outside of the 90 minutes that we watch. And it sounds like you’re very much alive to that particularly at youth level.
Lee Carsley
Oh, absolutely yes, there’s so much that goes into it. I remember when I used to play, sometimes people would say “I didn’t recognise you, because you didn’t have your kit on”. And you know you don’t walk around with your football kit on, I’ll be a dad now, I’m on a school run or, you know, you’ll fill in the car up. But supporters just want the performances, don’t they, which is totally understandable and there is good form and bad form but there’s generally a story behind it. I mean, I’m watching Brentford play at the minute and the environment and the culture that Thomas and the rest of the staff have created, it’s obviously a great place to work.
And I don’t think that’s just “happened”. Thinking back to when I was there with Mark Warburton to start with and the culture he created – with Marinus it wavered a little bit – but it was still strong enough to get back on track quickly. And then Dean Smith came in and Thomas and it’s gone from strength to strength. But a lot of that – if not all of it – has got do with Matthew and the way that he manages – and Phil – the way that they manage and how calm they are and how connected they are to the club and the fans.
Stuart Hatcher
Absolutely right. Just thinking back to the old Brentford days as well, and you touched on age as well and there is the old adage “if you’re good enough, you’re old enough”, in terms of your world, how do you make that judgment as to when you are good enough and old enough. I guess you have the complete anomalies like a Rooney who at 16 was something else. But back in the day when Brentford were pretty rubbish my dad always “throw the youngsters in, they can’t do any worse!” Is that sort of approach a sensible strategy? Is that a thing you can do?
Lee Carsley
I think nowadays there’s definitely a different mentality. With the players I coach especially – although I’m not saying that’s the same proof throughout all of the experiences that some of the coaches would have – but generally when you are within the England pathway, you’re getting the best of the best, whether that’s under 16/17 and there’s some players that are just ready and then you can tell a mile off. You’ve used a good example there of Wayne Rooney. I played with Wayne when I was at Everton, and he was ready at 15. He made his debut at 16 but at 15 you could have put him in – he stood out like a sore thumb. I think these players you can’t hold them back, there isn’t a development plan for them. Jude Bellingham is a good example as well at Birmingham City and the job that they did with him (and also his brother Jobe). They’re just ready to play you know physically and probably more importantly mentally as well, that they’re ready to cope with negative situations, positive situations, which is just as important because a lot of these players, especially the young ones that I coach, they have massive success quickly and they then get thrust into a limelight. But you know, having the people around them that are able to keep them grounded and keep them focused is also really, really important.
You know that’s where the club is so important, and player welfare is such a big thing now and such a popular thing – because if you’re going to get the best out of anyone, you have to make sure that you understand that the actual person that you’re coaching.
Stuart Hatcher
And that’s interesting, because people talk about experience and I remember having a conversation (at the time when Marinus was there) with Jack O’Connell and Jake Bidwell and Jake was saying that we looked like a young squad but pointed that he had played something like 150 games already – as had a number of the players.
And that was something that as a fan I personally hadn’t clocked. So, is that a thing in terms of experience and games and age: does that make a massive difference to the ability and success?
Lee Carsley
Yes, I think it does. I think if you use the number of games that Jake mentions that there’s a big difference, but there’s a big difference between going Saturday to Saturday and having that week where you can recover and build yourself up and then having that ability and that endurance to go Saturday, Tuesday – which is what the Championship is like – Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday. To keep that consistency going as well as manage things around you in terms of your recovery, diets and all that is the thing. But with that especially with younger players, they have to make mistakes. So, they have to have a late night on a Saturday, not feel great on a Sunday, play awfully in a Tuesday, get dropped and then build back up again. It’s understanding whereabouts they are on that cycle.
Stuart Hatcher And then on the Brentford side, again as well, sort of just jumping around a little bit, but you were there when the new stadium was in train and Jersey Road was being developed (which I’m sure I’m sure if you’ve been there recently, you probably wouldn’t recognise it – you’d probably think your sat nav had taken you to the wrong place!). Did you sense that Brentford – and it sounds like maybe the answer is yes – but did you sense they were always going to get to where they are now, or has it surprised you a little bit as to how much it’s improved?
Lee Carsley
With Matthew, Phil and the plans – I was shown them – you know, it’s a brilliant new training ground and they were stating they were going to do this, you never doubt that it was going to happen. The ground – before the move – it was similar to the Baseball Ground where it’s so important to the fans and the history and the culture and all the rest of it and so you wonder what impact is that going to have on the club and on the team and to see the see the difference now! I mean, I remember my first day doing under 21s – we used to get changed in a Portacabin! Which was very rundown to the point where it had a massive hole in the wall by the shower which me and the fitness coach went to B&Q and literally bought some plywood and fixed it just so the lads could have more of a private shower! And everything has moved in the right direction because you know the fact now that the club’s in the Premier League is fitting to the facilities that it’s got. Some clubs do it the other way around – where they build a brilliant ground and brilliant training facilities, but the team aren’t very good. Whereas here as the team’s got better, the facilities have got there because – you know – if you want to show a new signing around a training ground showing them a Portacabin that’s been set on fire a couple of times and it’s got a massive hole in it, it’s probably not what you want!
Stuart Hatcher
Yes, I’m sure I’ve heard a couple of stories – whether urban myth or otherwise – where it was said that we didn’t let new players see the training facilities before they signed back in the old days.
Lee Carsley
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But even with the old ground, the hotel where the players would have their pre match, we would walk them to the ground, which is a big thing!. And I didn’t realise how big a thing that that was until I watched “The Damned United”. And I saw that Clough did it once – when Forest went to Millwall – he made them get off the coach and walk to the ground from the Old Kent Road, so that if they can walk through all the spittle and vitriol and everything then they could handle anything on the pitch! And yet at Brentford it was normal. It wasn’t the case that there’s selfies or autographs, it was literally everyone’s just walking to the ground to watch the game.
Stuart Hatcher
It’s interesting that you say that because we have lost that a little bit, because it was great. I remember actually just walking out after the game where Josh Dasilva had made his debut and there he was walking to the hotel, and then Dean Smith once just walking down the road after a game and you’re like “Oh! Hi Dean, how’s everything?”
Lee Carsley
Yes, and even when you were in the hotel – before and after the game – the players were there and just mingling with fans.
Stuart Hatcher
Oh yes, it was full of fans. But that is one of the downsides of the Premier League because players – including the opposition – used to walk out through Braemar Road and everyone would stop for autographs, but it is so much harder to have that now because of the high profile of some of the players, some absolute world superstars and that is probably a little but of the innocence that you lose by being in the Premier League, which is a bit of a shame.
Lee Carsley
Yes, indeed. Those times felt unique, like there were unique: just good times.
Stuart Hatcher
To turn to another question, I did dig back into some of your programme notes. When you were the Brentford coach, and you touched on it, but I’d like to get in to it a bit more – you spoke about confidence not to be underestimated, and that players really need belief and enjoyment to go out and perform to their best. I mean, does that translate still? And thinking about the England role, does that view translate both at domestic and international level?
Lee Carsley
So I remember the first meeting that I had with the players when I got the job, and I’d been the under 21 coach and so it wasn’t “matey”, I was getting called “Carse” or anything like that – it was literally “morning” and that would be that. And in this meeting, I remember telling them how disappointed I was watching them. That when they played for Marinus and Roy they’d gone from being really attacking and exciting to watch, to being really predictable, slow and lethargic. I suppose it was a bit of a gamble on myself, but the point I was trying to make was “you’re actually letting yourselves down because you’re not giving the best version of yourself”. You’re not showing the fans what you’ve done in the past, you’re actually taking the easy way out I went down that route because I was genuinely disappointed watching them – and I go to all the games and I tried to put the ownership back on them, that you’re good players, if you can get back in the right mindset, there’s no reason why you can’t fly up the league and that was literally the case. It was giving them the ownership again: you’ve got the responsibility, you’ve got the ownership – it’s about us, what can we do better? And it’s started from then – and they worked harder and they got fitter and the confidence slowly – slowly but surely- came back. And Alan Judge kept scoring goals, and we had Harlee [Dean] and Tarky [James Tarkowski] as centrebacks.
Stuart Hatcher
In that Marinus season, we’d signed a lot in the summer, there seemed to be a bit of a challenge about integration, lots of players new to the club?
Lee Carsley
Yes, and I don’t think the players that had been there a while helped that – because if you sign for Brentford from Newcastle, it’s obviously a long way away, but it’s the same language, if you do want to nip back to Newcastle, it’s a trek, but you can get there. But if you’re from Denmark or France or Switzerland or Austria or wherever – it is just that bit more difficult. So, what I encouraged as well is that I’d put clips on before training. If we were doing meetings – say for instance, Lasse Vibe scoring goals, to show the team that if we are going to get the best out of him, this is how we need to play, and this is the kind of support that he needs. And I tried to do that with a lot of the players because we signed some really good players that just weren’t settling in They needed time and they needed that pressure taken off them to then come back. So, Hoff [Philipp Hofmann] is a good example – the big German guy that we had up front, he’d run England under 21s ragged for Germany.
Stuart Hatcher
Didn’t he score a hat trick against England? And it was like who is this player?
Lee Carsley
Yes, and he was unplayable and you’re like “oh, where’s this guy then?” And slowly but surely, you know? Came on, a sub – goal. Came on as sub – goal. So, the confidence starts to breed and so that is the route that we went with them.
Stuart Hatcher
I have to say if you said that about being disappointed to a squad with a team that had Alan McCormack in it, you’re brave man. I mean, angriest man in football, I think. If you went in and said I’m a bit disappointed with you, with Alan in that dressing room…..
Lee Carsley
Yeah, very, very, very passionate. But I think you’re always looking for past history, of them doing well in the past. If they’ve not done well in the past, I couldn’t have said that. And you can touch a bone with someone if they know you’re telling the truth, they may be upset, but they might realise that you have might have a point now. And luckily enough I had leaders in the team, who set good examples in the team – people like Sam Saunders. Getting John Swift settled in quickly and Ryan Woods and players like that were so important.
For 6 games at the end of 2024, Lee Carsley became the second former Bee to be in charge of the England national side (following on from Ron Greenwood – a Brentford player & captain 1949-52 and England’s manager 1977-82).
In the second part of Bees United chair Stuart Hatcher’s interview with Lee Carsley, they look at Lee’s time in charge England and some of his career highlights.